Hello, I’m a Detestable Abomination | Looking at Leviticus and Deuteronomy

“Abomination!”  I don’t think anyone has ever called me an abomination.  But, do I deserve to be  labeled as such? Guess there is one way to find out: by looking at the definition in the Bible and then seeing what things are listed as abominations. Then, at least I can see if God thinks I am an abomination. How could I be? I am straight, celibate and go to church each Sunday.   I play nice, I act kindly and I honor my Mom.

If any of us wants to take the verses in Deuteronomy and Leviticus and label the GLBT people as abominations, we had better check out the meaning and make sure we are not condemning ourselves too.  I mean, I sure don’t want to point out your splinter if I have a log. That would be stupid.

Abomination comes from the Hebrew word “toebah” meaning something morally disgusting or  an abhorrence of something usually connected with idolatry.  There is quite a list of things in the OT  that the author of those books considered to be abominations. I will try to put them in modern terms.  The things specifically listed as abominations in the Old Testament (remember, this is a Hebrew word and only used in the OT) are:

  • touching/eating anything with “impurity”, like dead bodies,  sperm, unclean animals (camels, rabbits, pigs, four footed animals that are not cattle), any sea life without scales or legs (catfish, lobster, shrimp, oysters, clams, mussels etc.), certain birds that eat carrion.
  • customs associated with the worship of  anything other-than-God
  • idols
  • any action a person does that is not done in the name of God
  • cheating
  • atheists
  • one that departs from God
  • those that lie
  • people who shed innocent blood (abortions, killing civilians in war, even States that kill innocent people)
  • those that cause distress, evil, trouble or wrong toward others
  • lying about another person
  • people that cause trouble in a community
  • cheating in business or exchanges of money
  • inauthentic sacrifice and repentance (wrong motive, manipulation)
  • doing things for yourself and not God
  • pride
  • passing sentence or judgment on an innocent man or letting an evil man go free
  • cheating others in property or matters of goods
  • people that turn from hearing God’s Word
  • the prayers of an evil person
  • sacrificed meat eaten on the third day instead of being burned
  • men having sex with men
  • any superstitious relic
  • an imperfect animal offering
  • anyone who visits taro card or palm readers or who reads horoscopes
  • wearing clothes of the opposite sex (pants for women, kilts for men–OUT!)
  • bringing money earned from prostitution from selling yourself into your home
  • remarrying a former spouse
  • cheating people
  • making images or idols
  • having the idols of certain gods in your possession
  • prayers not offered in faith
  • human sacrifices
  • robbery
  • murder
  • adultery
  • oppression of others that are poor or vulnerable
  • violence
  • breaking promises
  • lending money with interest
  • having sex with a menstruating woman
  • injustice
  • worship of anti-Christ
  • incest
  • things done to gain the popularity with others

Whew, so there is the list.  I could stop there and say we are ALL an abomination in the eyes of God. That is why He sent Jesus to save us all.  When  we position ourselves under a blood stained cross, the case against us closed.  BUT, that does not seem to be enough for those who insist on plucking out of the list “men having sex with men” and lead the morality charge with that mantra.  When I look at the list, I see only 14 things of which I cannot be condemned. Fourteen out of 43 is pretty bad.  Thank goodness human sacrifice, idolizing specific  certain gods and worshiping the anti-Christ are on that list.  Gives me three easy ones. I have not even listed the things which are forbidden:  mixing seeds in fields, trimming hair and beards, interbreeding animals, mixing fabrics in my clothing and  letting disabled people come to the holy place.  Strangely, however, human slavery is sanctioned. I have broken every one of those rules, but have not owned a slave.

Perhaps with that reality check,  there should be  even ground  at the foot of the cross. We can now look at the context, language and culture of Leviticus and Deuteronomy.  Leviticus was written  around 1490  BC when the Jews were coming out of  a 4000 year period of captivity to the Egyptians.  The Book is  a collection of sermons given by Moses over  a 40-day period.  Take this in for a moment:  they were about to wander for 40 years and had come from 400 years of living in another pagan culture. God needed them to be  separate and holy.  The people are reminded about four key things:  God is faithful, God is holy, God gives blessings and God warns.   Starting in chapter 5, there is a review of the Ten Commandments, the laws concerning sacrifice and special feast days, and new laws given to a new generation of God’s people. Blessing comes to those who obey, and famine comes to those who disobey.  The intention is to keep these people separate and holy so that Jesus might be born through a pure blood line.  God is serious and lays it out.

Deuteronomy means “the second law” and was also written by Moses, in 1451 BC, after Leviticus.  It was given to a new generation that had wandered the desert and was now about to cross the Jordan into their new home. The Law was repeated and  history was recounted.  I will look at both Books together since they are so similar in message on this subject.

There are some actions that are so bad (beyond abomination), that death is prescribed. These actions are :

  • denying God and saying He does not exist
  • getting too close to the Tabernacle when you were not supposed to be there
  • not observing the Sabbath
  • disobeying one’s parents
  • cursing or hitting one’s parents
  • sexual intercourse with a woman that has her period
  • losing your virginity outside “marriage”
  • adultery
  • being a false prophet
  • male homosexual sex
  • witchcraft
  • worshiping other gods
  • using God’s name in vain
  • bestiality
  • rape
  • a woman who does not cry out when being raped ,
  • witchcraft
  • murder
  • kidnapping

Whew! I am doing a bit better on this one.  I have managed to escape five causes of death, and apparently I have more lives than a cat.  I am not intending to demean the Word of God here; I am trying to point out that these consequences were for a time when God needed His people to stay apart. Sure, we have carried many of these “don’ts” to our modern culture, but the bulk, we have mercifully left behind.

When you look outside the Books of Law laid down for the Jews, the death penalty still exists for : witches,  hitting one’s parents, idolaters, being a false prophet, those that approach the tabernacle and people that work on the Sabbath. I know I am doing better on this checklist,  but still, not  clean.  So, what have I surmised? I am an abomination to God and deserve to be put to death over and over. And what do I know about God? I know He loves me, and the ultimate proviso for me in the life and death of Jesus, and that  I will not ultimately be put to death. I will die a natural death and then live forever.

Still, I must get to the verses in Leviticus and Deuteronomy that cite same-sex behavior.  I would not blame those of you who already get the bottom line for bailing out here.  Why would I condemn anyone for anything when I scored so miserably on this abomination/deserve-to-die test?  Still some do exactly that.  Some do go as far as “kill the gays”  (church leaders in Uganda, Martin Ssempa, Scott Lively and Lou Engel.) Others only want GLBT people shunned within society and certainly wthin the churches.

Diving in, Leviticus 18:22, 20:13 and Deuteronomy 23:17-18 read:

“Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.” (Some versions say “abomination.”)

“If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.”

“No Israelite man or woman is to become a shrine prostitute.”

Abomination, death and if you are an Israelite, don’t be a temple prostitute.  Looking deeper:  when a man lies with a woman, it is penetrative sex.  What the pagans did that so repulsed Moses was penetrative sex in the temples and out of them.  You cannot add what is not here as much as some  would like to.  To a Jew, only coitus with a woman was acceptable, no oral, no anal, nothing when they were on their periods, nothing when they were uncircumcised, nothing other than coitus.  If men were banned from sex  other than the type they had with a woman, were they allowed to have oral sex?  Was only anal sex an abomination?  If were are going to be strict to the Word, then let’s do that.  And what about women having sex with women?  That is not addressed here.  It was not acceptable  to the Jews, but probably was known to the pagans.  Women are just not mentioned.

Mixing different kinds  of anything was forbidden, or detestable to a Jew (fabrics, seeds, animal species). Likewise mixing up roles was detestable. Men who took the submissive role (of a female) in sex were detestable.  Is doing something detestable or abominable sinful and out-of-the-Kingdom worthy?  If you have forgotten, please go review the list, put down your Torah and join me as we continue on.

“Toevah” is the Hebrew word.  It means ritually unclean and is often used in association with idolatry. This makes sense in so much of the “don’t” list.  Many of these actions and things had to do with behaviors that were not clean. The banned foods generally fed on dead things, the banned things were generally used in idol worship.  The banned actions were performed while in worship in the temples.

If God wanted to call something “sin,” a wicked thing, an ethical wrong, a heinous crime, something lewd, there was a word that indeed communicate that.  That word is “zimah” or “zimmah”  and was used to describe prostitution and adultery. I have had this conversation enough to anticipate the next two questions: What about sex with children and sex with animals?  Actually and sadly, however much is said about abuse of people, prostitution, offending children and causing them to sin, nothing is directly said about sex with children. I personally see the biggest warning in Matthew 18 when Jesus Himself says that a person is better off never having been born, or better off drowning, than to hurt a child or cause that child to fall away.  On the subject of bestiality, it is mentioned  outside the Books of the Law.  In Exodus 22, anyone who has sex with an animal is to be put to death. In Genesis, Adam rejected all animals as a suitable partner.  Jude 7 has a prohibition of going after  “strange flesh.” And no, that is not homosexuality either. It would have said homoios flesh and not heteros flesh. (I believe there is an issue of sex with angels that was known in the OT too, but that is for another post.)  MY GLBT brothers and sisters are asking for same-sex, mutually-attracted, committed relationships.  I do not know one GLBT person that is desirous of marriage with a child or an animal; that is just smoke-blowing foolishness.

The final words to investigate are in Deuteronomy.  They are  translated “whore”, t”emple prostitute”, “sodomite”, “shrine prostitute.” They appear in Hebrew as “qadesh,” meaning a temple male prostitute and “qedeshah”  meaning a female prostitute. Yet,they often have been translated as “homosexual” and “sodomite”.  Sodomite should be written male temple prostitute because many of us will do mental gymnastics  in our heads that look like this: “Sodom was destroyed because of homosexuality and we know  God hates that, so He hates sodomites.” The word is qadesh, prostitute.  Translators have inserted the translation “sodomite,” and they were indeed performing male anal sex, but they were doing it in the context of idol worship here. THAT is the issue.  Prostitution in idol worship.  Hopefully all readers know how God feels about idol worship. It is “zimmah,” sin.  This is a freebie here–Jesus came through the line of a prostitute. How can that be?  Well, Rahab was an ordinary street whore not involved in the temples. God would have NEVER allowed Jesus to come through a line of temple qedeshahs.

To bring it all back to a point to consider:  we are all, all, all guilty of abominations, of detestable behavior, of actions worth the penalty of death in the Old  and New Testaments.  I see serving another god as sin, adultery as sin, knowing God once and turning from Him as sin, turning  a child from God as worthy of death,  and all this  is without  even glancing at the Ten Commandments.

If we are trying to be faithful to the Word of God and neither insert nor subtract anything on the subject of same sex behavior  regarding these verses, they can be reduced to stating the following:

  • Men are not to have anal sex with men as the pagans do,for it is unclean and ritually dirty.
  • If a man has sex with a man, they are both to be put to death.
  • No Jew should ever be a temple prostitute.

Can we agree that this is the summary?  If we still want to abide by Laws given to Jews in the Books of the Law, then we have to abide by all of them. That means you are an abomination if  you:  put anything above God, do any action not in His name, cheat, lie, have an abortion, cause others stress or trouble them, lie about another person, cheat in business,  have a relic around the house, remarry your ex, perform acts of injustice, have sex with a woman having her period or lend money with interest,  amongst others things.)

And for those who really sin (deny God,  do not go to church on Sunday, get to close to a church when you should not  be , curse or hit your parents, lose your virginity before marriage or commit adultery), we will have to kill you along with gay men who have anal sex.  We ‘re going to need to excuse the women  here  because they are not mentioned in these verses. (For investigation into Romans 1, read here.)

I don’t want these abomination/death controls and edicts on me.  I prefer to extend grace to anyone so that these Laws are not held over me.  I struggle to keep the two laws that Jesus said were the crux of it all:  love God and keep Him first, and love others as I love myself.

Can we please stop laying unnecessary burdens on the backs of the GLBT community? Not  only are we not lifting a finger to help, but we are also  using that finger to point and condemn.  These Books of the Law were intended for the Jews as they entered the Promised Land to keep them holy for the Savior’s bloodline’s sake.  I think they are all dead now; can we just get to the business of what Jesus did ask us to do.  Love others.  Screaming “abomination” at a group is not love.  Throwing a gay child out of the home is not love.  Keeping 5% of the population from knowing Him and growing in love for Him is not love.  Telling those that stand up against injustice that were are heretics is not love.  People know what love looks like.  It looks like  accepting people for who they are and serving to them;  it looks like kindness.  That is love.  I am getting better at extending it when I look to the One Who tells me He loves me and asks me to reflect Him.  So, how are you doing?  Still toting around the Torah meant for the Jews as they walked into the Promised Land?  May I suggest you put it down so that you can use both hands to serve and love? Maybe part of the reason we are degrading as  a world is not that we have not kept enough rules,  but rather that we have not extended enough grace, we might actually impact our world for  good, and it may  end up feeling more like a Promised Land to all instead of  a prison to some.

Blessings and peace to you, Kathy

RELATED POSTS:

MUST READ:::

“Dear Church, | Ten Insights on the glbt Christian Dialogue”

“Was Sodom Really Destroyed Because it Was a Gay City?”
“Are You In or Out?  I Corinthians and I Timothy”
“Romans 1:26-32 | To Whom Was This Directed?”
‘Words on My Heart”

No part of this original work may be quoted in part without permission. Entire article with author name, Kathy Baldock, must be linked or appear with text.  www.canyonwalkerconnections.com

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Mary says:

I know this is a old post but I just wanted to say thank you, your comment was insightful. I also believe there are only 2 choices God or satan. If ANYONE calls on the name of Jesus you shall be saved. Jesus was The Son of God sent to die for Our sins, but to be saved you have to know that Christs blood covered our sin once we accepted Christ into our heart. If you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord, believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead you shall be saved! It’s never been up to us to judge what or how you live your life. When you meet God that’s when they will answer for the choice they make! Love and let God deal with each of our sin. If anyone leads a person down the wrong path they both will have to answer to God!!

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carl says:

I love it. I was comparing those sad non-believers that judge with a familiar hate group that wears sheets. I love how an overweight person wants yo kill the gays, but ignores their witchcraft. Jesus gave us one commandment to love one another…oops looks like that one gets broken the most.

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Lil says:

Wow. Thank you for expressing in words what I know in my head and my heart but I could never say so beautifully and with so much love for ALL of God’s precious children.

Bright Blessings!

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Folly says:

One question: what of the homosexual people who are NOT homosexual anymore?

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Kathy | Canyonwalker Reply:

Bisexual, in denial and others did need some sort of sexual healing.

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Folly says:

I don’t believe that Kathy here has ever stated her views on this verse yet. She also hasn’t replied to it. Coincidence? I think not.

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Kathy | Canyonwalker Reply:

WHAT are you alluding to?? I WROTE the article and author EVERY piece on the blog. Coincidence? I think not — it is my blog.

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Angela says:

Deut 22
Geber is Hebrew for
Warrior male. The passage was talking about women who put on armor and warrior male are putting
On women clothes. It might have been idolaty because of the Hebrew word toebah. So cross dressing okay and women wearing pants and men Wearing kilts.

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Tim says:

Better translation:

Lev 18:22 “and with remembrance never you(masc.) will lay with my bedded wife.”

Seems to be a verse about adultry, and not homosexuality to me.

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Dolorosa says:

All humans are “destestable abominations” – so I’m not understanding why you are singling out the homosexual community like some sort of special sinner or something. All humans are sinners – all humans will be sinners until Jesus returns.

Basically, you, me or any of us can go find a hundred or so “books” that mankind has re-written to suit his or her own agenda. You, me or any of us can choose a “feel good” church that doesn’t preach about homosexuals, adultery, or any other sin.

You, me or any of us have that choice – to find whatever, or whomever, suits “us” – but what you need to understand is that in doing that, it doesn’t, and never will, change one single dotted i or crossed t in God’s Word.

So yes – you, me or anyone else can find “acceptance” here on planet Earth – a neighborhood that accepts people as they are, a book that has the word “Bible” on the front that doesn’t make anyone feel “bad” or “guilty” – a church that doesn’t preach the truth, or even a church that doesn’t preach at all nor risk “offending” anyone by preaching about a particular sin.

Just remember – this life here on planet Earth is not our final destination – and all of us have one of but two choices. The Bible (the real one) tells us that if we are not with God, then we are against Him. It isn’t a multiple choice either. If you aren’t with God – then you are with satan. There aren’t any other options.

Do we want temporary “happiness” or eternal happiness. Seems a shame to trade out eternity for this tiny sliver of time we have here – for an eternity locked in hell.

Just some points to ponder.

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Dolorosa says:

Leviticus 18:22 (King James Version)

22Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

=====================================================

You are twisting God’s Word, my friend – to suit your own agenda.

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Angela Reply:

DO you read the hebrew? NO, right.Do you eat shrimp? Yes then you have sin.LEv 18 and shrimps are in the same list. The Septuagint, Greek version of the Old Testament, reveals the same distinction between “toevah” and “zimah.” The Greek word “bdelugma” (transliterated) means a detestable thing, i.e. idolatry; the Greek word “anomia” (transliterated) means transgression of law. Bdelugma translates the Hebrew toevah; anomia translates the Hebrew zimah.

“bdelugma mean ritually unclean and since its the translate version of toevah in greek. Toevah mean ritually unclean.

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Folly Reply:

You have committed a grave error. The prohibitions on eating shellfish and other unclean foods are Levitical laws- ones that pertain only to Jewish ritual. They, and many other of the laws that you have stated, are Levitical laws and have no business on this topic. You have used them to obfuscate the issue at hand.

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Dolorosa says:

It appears, to me, that the homosexual community only wants to believe the “love” part of the Bible – not God’s laws for mankind.

And, my fellow humans, that will work just fine – down here on Planet Earth.

But I don’t think you are considering your eternal destination though. Is this tiny amount of time here on earth worth more to you than eternity?

Sure, the Holy Bible is about “love” – but it’s also about God’s wrath and Judgement. Are you just skipping over those parts – the parts that make you feel uncomfortable?

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Brent WildeFyre says:

Andrew, did you even read the article, and the comments by other readers? These verses have been mistranslated, and condemn temple prostitution, lying with another in the wife’s bed, etc., but are not even talking about homosexual sex. You, like many others, are using the mistranslation to justify your own prejudices- don’t use the Lord’s name in vain by suggesting it’s his prejudice instead of your own.

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Laura Reply:

Brent, what proof do you have that the verses have been “mistranslated?” You attacked it as a mis-translation to justify “your own prejudices” however, you gave no proof, no realistic discussion to prove your point. And, no one took the Lord’s name is vain. Did you mis-translate what that means? I think so. Further, explain how this is mis-translated….Romans 1:27
And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
un·seem·ly
/ˌənˈsēmlē/
Adjective
(of behavior or actions) Not proper or appropriate: “an unseemly squabble”.
Synonyms
unbecoming – improper – indecorous – indecent
rec·om·pense
/ˈrekəmˌpens/
Verb
Make amends to (someone) for loss or harm suffered; compensate.
Noun
Compensation or reward given for loss or harm suffered or effort made: “substantial damages were paid in recompense”.
In plain English, people who leave the natural use …and go for the lust are doing that which is improper, and indecent and they will suffer the reward!
I pray for all gay people and all who give into LUST, that they will turn away from their SIN, and ask forgiveness. Brent, we are all sinners, but we can all be saved by Grace. But, not if we make sin acceptable.

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Aaron says:

Please Kathy. I’m not trying to be confrontational.

You misread what I just posted.

Everything I put in quotation marks is a direct quote from your article – including the phrase “can we agree that this is the summary.” I was just quoting from your article and asking for clarification on what you believe. Those weren’t my words, they were yours.

Just a few more follow up comments if you wish to interact.

You said:
“are you aware Aaron that holding others to your literal reading of Biblical sexual practices pre100 AD would also restrict you today?”

This is an interesting statement, because the whole point of your discourse was to argue for what you believe is the correct literal view of the passages, and by extension, what the implications of that reading are (to you, those implications are that homosexuality is not frowned upon by God). So, the issue is not being too “literal,” its what the literal interpretation really is. I think we both agree that whatever that interpretation is, there are implications to us, no matter how long ago it was written. That is an issue of application, not interpretation.

You seem to agree that the passage has implications to us today, particularly laying out some standards God has for sex and the banning of unhealthy expressions of sex, such as prostitution and manipulation, as you stated. It appears you believe the text is a true guide in forbidding these types of sexual expression. I’m not sure how you think these restrictions fit in with your statement “the way two people choose to express themselves sexually is between the two and not for another to legislate or approve of.” While I agree that it’s not man’s job to meddle in the private affairs of each other, it sounds like you agree that God has the right to “legislate” certain sexual conduct (otherwise you’d have no grounds for saying prostitution, manipulation, or bestiality is wrong).

So, the bottom line is that God has the right to determine for us what types of sexual expression are correct and which are not, and that the Bible tells us what types of expression he does not approve. I don’t think you’d disagree with this. The disagreement would be what the Bible is actually saying about certain practices, and whether or not those instructions are relevant for us today.

The interpretation of the text is what I’m interested in exploring, and that seems to be what you’ve spent a lot of time doing yourself. I have no problem hanging out with glbt believers, but they shouldn’t be the standard by which I interpret God’s word. Yes, they may be smiling and confident, but that tells me nothing about whether or not their views of this issue are correct. If I want to find out whether or not Mormon beliefs are correct, I do a study of Mormon teachings and compare them to the Bible, seeking out the proper way to interpret scripture. I may visit a Mormon church to get a better feel for their beliefs, but I don’t base my interpretation of Mormonism on whether or not they are happy, confident, and convinced that their views are true.

I’m not equating glbt believers to Mormons, but it served as a comparison to make my point.

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Kathy | Canyonwalker Reply:

Aaron, you focus on sex too much, far more than my glbt friends. I would suspect that if you went to Jesus with your “what about anal sex?” questions, He would say “Aaron, you are focused on and asking the wrong questions. What about love of God and your neighbor and how are you doing in your treatment of the poor?” Get your head out of the trash and look at people’s relationship with God as a spiritual expression based in the heart and not in your underpants or bed. Go meet some glbt believers and get passed your clear biases. No matter how nicely couched, your social exclusions are showing. All means all. Morality police at the door is not a Jesus value. He works on the heart where He chooses to do so. Love God, love others and if you have any energy left over, you are probably not doing those well enough. Get your head out of the trash when it comes to same sex behavior. The way you express love in sex to your wife would repulse most of my gay friends, yet they are not all up in your business judging your faith by what you are doing/not doing. I hope you will invest time in getting to know the WHOLE person when it comes to the glbt community. Thank you for reading. (I chose to include your final post on this issue and respond. But will not allow any more “carnal” chatter from you.) Watch this service on line and think of how ridiculous you would feel about asking any of these people about how they do sex. http://www.diversitychristianfellowship.com/online/sermons/video.php

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Aaron says:

Hi,

Just here seeking understanding….

Do I hear you correct in that you feel the Bible prohibits homosexual anal sex but not oral sex?

Also, I find something very interesting in Bro. Rollins response (which I assume you don’t completely agree with),

He says “Neither verse prohibits homosexual activity, only where this sexual activity may occur. The issues here involve defiling a womans’s bed with improper use. The problem involves the mixing of blood and seed (bodily fluids).”

I really need to get this straight, because according to his defense of the verse, he seems to imply that homosexual male sex is ok as long as it doesn’t take place in the bed of one of the men’s wife. Well, that certainly wouldn’t be ok because that would be adultery, would it not? -which would be “zimah.”

If God was giving a command to regulate the practice of homosexual male sex, why would it be something like “its ok as long as you don’t do it in the same bed you have sex with your wife?” No, God would not make any allowance for adultery.

Do you catch my drift?

Back to your beliefs Kathy – do you warn your gay friends about having anal sex if they think it is okay, but you think the Bible prohibits it? (or perhaps you don’t have friends like that – just wondering hypothetically)

Thanks for your time.

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Kathy | Canyonwalker Reply:

Aaron—first, I feel the way two people choose to express themselves sexually is between the two and not for another to legislate or approve of. There are unhealthy expresssions of sex: prostitution, manipulation, abuse to name a few. Next, I do not think being homosexual is any different in God’s eyes than being heterosexual. Further, the high road for God is the same for all sexual orientations. Man has put the limitor on people with same sex attractions by not allowing them to get married. Committed, monogamous same sex relationships are the best some homosexuals can enter in many states while they are barred from marriage. I would hold those relationships to be equal to “marriage” until we humans lift the barrier.
Lastly, I do not warn my heterosexual friends, nor my homosexual friends about any form of sex. My focus is not HOW to people express desire. My focus is relationship with God and Jesus.
Are you aware Aaron that holding others to your literal reading of Biblical sexual practices pre100 AD would also restrict you today? “Natural” use of a woman would ONLY include part A to slot B–no oral, no anal, no non baby producing sex. I sure hope you do not participate in any such thing with your wife because then you would be doing something “unnatural” within that context of what the word meant in that culture.
Focus on the heart and how it relates to God is the issue of Christianity–God looks at the heart. I would suggest you do the same and get your own mind out of someone else’s pants. We point people to God; what He does with them is His business. Micromanaging the rules of sex is not in the job description of a believer, especially micromanaging someone else’s sexual practices. The attitudes I assume you hold block people at the door, again, not your job. Thank you for reading.

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Aaron Reply:

Thanks Kathy

I was merely trying to understand your point of view, not condemn it.

This is what you said:

“Men are not to have anal sex with men as the pagans do,for it is unclean and ritually dirty.
If a man has sex with a man, they are both to be put to death.
No Jew should ever be a temple prostitute.

Can we agree that this is the summary?”

It sounded like you were saying that anal sex is an unhealthy expression of sex. I just wanted to see if I was understanding that correctly.

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Kathy | Canyonwalker Reply:

No we cannot agree. Context. Even I would have had not voice then. Applying cultural standard to today would be foolish in MANY circumstances. If God did think men should be stimulated anally, He sure would not have put the prostate where He did nor would He have put a woman’s pleasure center on the outside where she did not need penetration.
Again Aaron, get your focus out of the underpants and onto the spirit and heart where God does. I will not be entertaining this line of questioning/clarification any longer with you. Tell me where you live and I will direct you to a body of glbt believers. Go see God’s Spirit and shift your thinking; it is pretty carnal. Thank you for reading.

Sasha says:

Thank you for this post. I’m trying to figure out this whole issue right now, and my little bro sent this site to me. The “detestable” list is one of the things I’ve fought with the most since I’ve always been taught that homosexual acts (“hate the sin, not the sinner”) were wrong but in this same passage it says cross-dressing in wrong too. While I don’t cross-dress totally, I’m not recognizable on sight all of the time and online I’m often mistake for the opposite gender. So thanks for this post (as well as the others I’m reading now)
-Sasha

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Andrew says:

You have no concept of repentance. Repentance means confess and turn from sin. That does not mean we may not stumble, but it does mean we should not habitually continue to sin. This is a sad perversion of biblical truth and a poor understanding of the application of the Law to the Christian.

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Kathy Reply:

“You have no concept of repentance”–what an interesting statement.

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Andrew Reply:

Define repentance.

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Kathy Reply:

Andrew–my best recommendation to you is RELATIONSHIP. Go get in close relationship with some gay Christians and talk to them. Actually LISTEN to them and go to services with them. Love them. And then deal with you book theology. Check out http://www.welcomingchurches.org or tell me the city you are in and I can point you to a congregation of GLBT believers.

Andrew Reply:

We’re not talking about book theology. We are talking the Bible. I questioned your definition of repentance. Can you not answer the question rather than attempting to dodge by assuming I am the one with the problem?

Kathy Reply:

The issue goes back to sin and not repentance. I do not think being homosexual is a sin nor do I believe that homosexual sex in a committed relationship akin to heterosexual sex is sinful.
I can respond to all question, but do I see it as fruitful and a good use of my time? Not all the time.
Read more around the blog. I substantiate my beliefs on every page. Thank you for the read.

Andrew Reply:

Kathy,

What does “being homosexual” mean? This is the language of modern psychology. The Bible views homosexuality not as part of a person’s “being” but as something they do. The commands in Leviticus do not condemn homosexuals. They condemn men who lie with men. It is the action that God says is an abomination, not a state of being. Your modern understanding of the issue is being imported anachronistically back into the biblical text.

Kathy Reply:

Read the post on sexual orientation. http://canyonwalkerconnections.com/2010/11/im-a-zero/

You can publish my email if you want, but I hope instead that you’ll visit my website:
www. messianicjewishscholastics. net

I show in this how Lev. 18:22 has been ENTIRELY mistranslated.
“Ve Et Zacor” And with remembrance
“Lo Tishcab” Never you(masc.)-will-lay
“Mishcabey Ishah” My Bedded Wife.

The ONLY part that get translated on a regular and complete basis are the next
two words: “Toebah Hoo” Abomination It (is).

And now for Leviticus 20:13.

“Ve Ish Asher” And A Man That
“Yishcab” He Will Lay
“Et Zacor” With Remembrance
“Mishcabey Ishah” My Bedded Wife …and the rest of it is translated well.

However, I’ve got good news! Brother Rollins has correctly translated Deuteronomy chapter 22, verse 05!!!! Great Job, man!

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Robert John Huffine Reply:

by the way, in Leviticus 20:13, the prefix word ‘veh’ at the beginning implies the “volitional sense” (should, could, would, may, might, etc), so that I forgot to put in the connecting word-thought with the above’s verb:
“Yishcab” He Should Lay. Again, the volitional is implied in the Hebrew Grammar from the “Veh” at the beginning of the verse, to be tacked onwards to the verb.
Sorry about that.

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Robert John Huffine Reply:

hey I forgot to mention this: visit my FaceBook page under my name,
Robert John Huffine. And look at the “info” page. Pretty interesting!

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Chumbly says:

I randomly found this today (late to the party, as ever). What a wonderful message you share.

I agree, why pick and choose which parts of the old law one applies, either apply it all or nothing. One should not use it to justify prejudice that has evolved over the past few centuries (it seems in europe, at least).

Despite appreciating the sentiment and logic behind your entry, I do agree with Bro. Rollins immediate response. You quite innocently understand some references to be about men having sex with men. The translation of many of the scriptures used in reference homosexual relationships and activity are commonly mistranslated; and refer to idolatrous sexual acts and to a women’s bed as private “her own”, or in reference to the “uncleaness” of women at certain times of the month.

My last point is also quite commical when it comes to picking and choosing which parts of the old law one decides are vital today… in that most Christians do not expect women to exclude themselves or make sacrifices during or at the end of that part of their natural monthly cycle (which, if I recall correctly was required or similar).

Overall reading the thoughts you expressed back in June left me with a nice warm loving feeling inside. Thank you.

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shaun says:

Kathy,
I am surprised how quickly you publicly passed judgement on recycleyourfaith.org after reading the above post. I hope you would reconsider recanting your comments on the site after reviewing the nature of Matt’s teaching. I think what I am reading from your post is that we are all sinners and that jesus christ redeems us all from our sin. Is that correct? if so, then what do you think jesus means by to not walk in the flesh, to sin no more, and paul says in romans if grace, then shall we continue to sin. . .point being that above in the OT you site descriptions of certain sin in God’s view and you state that JC redeems, so why is it ok for me to not repent from sin when I have come to the understanding that JC is my redeemer? I hope you would please listen to the message Celebrating the Gospel that I posted on the dialogue on RYF. It seems we have a misunderstanding to me and I feel that you have passed judgement prematurely and published warnings that are not fair. Thank you in advance for your consideration. I hope someday you would come to know how my GL friends, and I mean friends, feel about me, my church, and the cross.

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Kathy Reply:

Shaun, actually the point of this post is that none of us could stand up under the Law and THANK GOD, really, thank you God, that we do not need to. Jesus took away the need to. To understand what I think abut Romans, read that post. I would also encourage you to read the post on I Cor & I Tim. Thank you for coming to the site; I appreciate it.

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Amy says:

Kathy, I don’t think I have commented before on your blog but I do enjoy reading it and have passed it along to others.
This post is right on them money in my opinion. Wasn’t alot of that which was written about the Jewish law, strictly written for those particular people, to keep people from “being on the fence” so to speak? Meaning if you were going to be the chosen people, you must abide by them all and not just some of them. I may be wrong here but that is what I thought most of that was about.

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Jen says:

Thank you for this post. Wow! This is so thorough and clear. I’d like to link this to my blog if that is ok. I talk about being gay and Christian and the struggles with the two. The “clobber passages” have been hit over the GLBT community time and again, keeping the gay community out of churches and away from the presence of God. My purpose with my blog is to give gays hope that they are loved by God, and to invite them into having a personal relationship with Jesus. What you are doing is great and encouraging, all well researched and open-minded for the Holy Spirit to speak through you. God Bless You!

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Jenn says:

Jesus’ line is also that of Ruth, a Moabite. Those cursed people were decendants of Lot whose daughters decided there was no other way to procreate than to get their father drunk and “lay” with him. Jesus brought redemtion to a world of people caught up in all kinds of things… His redemption brings grace to this world and translates that He did indeed come to break the law. That we may live in him abundantly….how is that possible if we pick and choose “who” can have Him? He came for us all…He brought redemption to us all…and broke the law…. I am not saying we throw out OT…but Jesus is clear that….”that was then…and this is now”

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Bro. Rollins says:

The verses in Lev. 18:22 and 20:13 are actually mistranslated.

Lev. 18:22 should read:”And with a male thou shalt not lie down in a woman’s bed; it is an abomination.”

The issue involves the woman’s bed. This verse does not prohibit same-sex sexual activity but rather where this can occur.

To understand the verses we have to look at the culture and the laws surrounding a woman’s bed. Her bed was for her only and her husband, even that was restricted at certain times.

The correct translation for Lev. 20:13 “And a man who will lie down with a male in a woman’s bed, both of them have made an abomination. Dying, they shall be put to death, their blood is on them.”

Neither verse prohibits homosexual activity, only where this sexual activity may occur. The issues here involve defiling a womans’s bed with improper use. The problem involves the mixing of blood and seed (bodily fluids).

Deuteronomy 22:5 – “The weapon of a warrior shall not be on a woman, nor shall a warrior put on the robe of a woman, for all who do these things are an abomination to the LORD thy God.”

Hebrew: Simlah. This was a robe, a garment worn by both sexes. Since both genders wore the simlah, this isn’t a prohibition of cross-dressing. Rather, it’s a blood issue. The woman’s robe and sword may have her menstrual blood and the blood of an enemy. This verse has absolutely nothing to do with cross-dressing.

Truthfully, anyone who is in bondage to any point of the Law is in bondage to the whole thing! Our Savior said it best: Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it , Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets (Matt. 22:37-40).

I rarely ever even comment on the two scriptures taken from Leviticus anymore. In my opinion, anyone even using these Scriptures is only doing so to try to support their own personal prejudices and hatred. But, I wanted to show my support for your efforts Sister!

Be Bessed!

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Kiriff Reply:

That was very insightful, thanks =)

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